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| Linzee |
The date is May 27, 2009. This is Jill Linzee. I am speaking with Lydia Charles, and Theresa Trebon, at the
Swinomish Reservation in La Conner, Washington. So, Lydia, were you born here, in La Conner on the reservation?
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| Charles |
I was born in Mount Vernon, Washington, the old Raleigh Hospital, October 17, 1949. I’m the second to the eldest of seven children, five daughters and two sons. My dad is
Norval Charles Sr. And my mom is
Gertrude Bob. I’ve pretty much lived on the reservation up until maybe about seven years. I married, when I was 22, and moved down
Nisqually. I lived down there, and then I came back home and I’ve been here ever since.
I had three older children from Nisqually. I had three younger children from my second marriage. I married a Swinomish. And so, my first husband was the late
Harold Ikebe. When we were first married he was elected, at 21, Chairman of the Nisqually Tribe.
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| Linzee |
He was 21 years of age?
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| Charles |
Yes. And at that time the closest I thought of ever being involved with the
Council was being a chairman’s wife. We were married about a year and a half and him and his younger brother were killed in an auto accident. And I decided, live down Nisqually, until I met my second husband, and I came back home.
I think my first thoughts of being on the Council was probably in high school. I would like to say sixth grade, but I think when I was in sixth grade was when I decided that I’d set a goal. I had a goal in life, and that at that time, I wanted to make sure I graduated from high school. Back then there was only one gentleman that graduated, and there would have been a young lady, but she just dropped out of school in her senior year. Smart, very smart. And so I decided at that time, I’m going to go all the way—graduate from at least high school, and I thought about college as well.
When I got into high school, my grandmother, Lizzie Sampson, was very close friends with the late Laura Wilbur, who was on our Council. She’s been on there a number of years. And they worked closely together. So anything that happened within the community, Laura would get my grandma involved, and my grandma would ask my mom and that’s how we, the girls (my sisters and I) would help them out. I always admired Laura, and I told myself, “I want to be just like her. I want to do what she does.”
And I must have been in high school then when I decided that. That’s why I’m relating back to as close as I can ever get to Council when I moved away. I never dreamed I’d ever come back. I think it was in 1982 my second husband encouraged me to run for the Council. I didn’t make it in that year, but in 1983, I ran again and I made it in. I made it in the Council for the first five years. I lost out one year, and then an elder gentleman decided he wasn’t going to run no more. So he asked me to run in his seat. So I ran in 1989, and I was elected back in the office. I served the last 20 years on our Council. When I first was elected, the first issue that we dealt with was negotiating with the town of La Conner on our sewer and water, and I thought to myself: “What the heck did I get myself into.”
It took me a long time. I’d say, the first five years is your learning process. Not everything’s the same; the issues that are put on the table are different every month. Some of the people in the community disagree on the decisions we make. They’re tough decisions that we have to decide on. And I’ve seen other issues that we dealt with, when Theresa first asked me, and I thought to myself, “Eek, what’s she going to ask me?” [laughs] To me, you know, personally, my role on the Council is I feel that there are times, there are other true leaders on our Council, and I just help them by making the right decision.
There’s times when Theresa asks me, I don’t think of myself as a elder. My mind still thinks I’m young, but my body keeps telling me that, “You’re not young anymore,” because I’m sore and hurt all the time. In March of this year I lost my Senate seat. I’m finally picking up the pieces. It was very difficult for me. Twenty-five years on the Council is a long time for me. I never dreamed I’d be on there that long.
I was Senate secretary, I think, probably in 1989, when I got back in I was appointed the secretary. I served with a number of Council members that are gone. One of them is Laura Wilbur,
Susan Wilbur,
Irene Anderson. And then there’s a number that are still living that I served with, and I tell you, I learned from the best. I’m very proud to serve with them.
There was a point in time, I’d say in the mid-nineties, our Council was split. And I tell you, I dreaded the thought of going into meetings, because we couldn’t come to an agreement at times. And then when it came to 2000, it changed a little bit. New members were coming in, and became a good working Council. We worked together. And though we sometimes didn’t see agree eye to eye, we all came to the agreement that this is for the people, and so we agreed on it. And I think it was
Wa Walton Robert Joe, Sr., that always told us, and this was told to him by—I can’t remember if it was the late
Dewey Mitchell or Richard Peters—said that whenever we go in the meeting we put on our Senate hat, and when we leave we put on our other hat. We don’t bring anything out and discuss it.
And I tell you, there was some enjoyment that I had with the Council. There’s was some frustrations. I was sad when I lost out, because I felt that I could do more for my people. It was always for them. It was Laura who was the one that always looked out and kind of taught me to work with those that are less fortunate, and that’s how we worked for our people. And that’s how I looked at it.
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| Linzee |
You mentioned that she was very inspiring to you as a leader. What was it about Laura that you said you wanted to be like her? What was it about her that you wanted to do or emulate?
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| Charles |
She was like very humble, and though she was a tribal leader, she made sure that she didn’t look down on people. And she was always there, making sure, helping our people. She was always there. She made sure, even in the latter part of her years, she’d always, if there was a funeral, she would buy the clothes to dress those that had left, and always did everything for them. And I admired her for the things that she did. It wasn’t out of selfishness. She did it out of love for her people, and that’s what I really looked at her and seen in her. Didn’t think of herself; she thought of her people.
When Susan Wilbur was elected, it was Laura that took her under her wing. Laura was getting up in age, and she was teaching Susan to do a number of things in the community, that Laura had done. If there was a dinner that had to go on, well, Laura taught Susan how to do that, and be able to--. Any event that came about, then either Laura would there, but Susan would be in control of it. And my part was just to do as they said. I would help them as much as I could. And that’s how I admired Laura and her husband, the late
Tandy Wilbur, Sr.
I remember the office in town was Laura, Tandy, and their daughter-in-law, Marie. And I did graduate from high school. In my family, out of the seven of us, all but one graduated. And out of the six children that graduated, we did have one sister that received her associate’s degree. It wasn’t me. It was my baby sister. I did try to go to school to further my education, but I just was nursing at first and I couldn’t take it. Then I was going into secretarial and I didn’t like that; and finally I just gave up and ended up getting married.
My six children (it was very disappointing for me), out of my six children, I only had one son that graduated. That’s from La Conner High School. I had another son who did receive his GED. So I had two children.
[an emotional moment – the recorder was paused at this point]
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| Linzee |
Let’s back up for a little bit and go back to the time when you were growing up with your parents.
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| Charles |
My family was poor. We didn’t have a whole lot. My dad was a logger, and he did all he could to put food on the table. My mom was a homemaker.
I can remember her going second-hand shopping and bringing these big women clothes home. She’d cut out fabric or cut it out and make it small enough to fit us. She was amazing woman. The things that-- She didn’t have electric sewing machine; she had one of those old-fashioned kind. I kind of picked up on that. I do sew, and I have a sister that’s a good seamstress—better than me. Though my parents, what they were doing for us kids was--they thought was the best. And when I finally married and had my own children, I made sure that what they wanted, I gave them.
With six children, they had to wait; take their turn; couldn’t get it all at once. I think, back then I remember in school, it was difficult. They were very prejudiced, La Conner School District. I remember the old
American Hall which used to sit here where this building is. And we used to have to walk over the old bridge and eat lunch over here. They wouldn’t let us eat lunch over there.
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| Linzee |
So you went to the public high school, which would have been the La Conner High School.
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| Charles |
Yes, yes.
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| Linzee |
And elementary school also?
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| Charles |
Yes.
Went there all twelve, all thirteen. Because when I was in first grade I didn’t make it. My first year I was shy and backward, scared. I was very close to my older sister,
Dianne, who still was elected on the Council. And her term is up next year.
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| Linzee |
How big was the community then? How many people were here in Swinomish Reservation?
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| Charles |
The only homes that I remember the village was just the village homes. Now we have the housing project. It’s a lot bigger. It wasn’t very big. I’d say, maybe when growing up, maybe two, two fifty tribal members back then.
It was very rural. Where I live now, we were lucky to see one car drive by. Be able to sit on the road. We used to get in trouble, but we’d play around on the road. That’s how quiet it was. Not like it is today, where a car goes by every second. I just live up the road about a mile from this building. I had a home built right next to my dad’s house, and when I grew up, I hated it up there--lived so far from the village area. But I built my home up there and I enjoy the peace and quiet. My kids hated it. They don’t like it. They’re too far away from their friends.
When we were young, the house that we lived in, I don’t have any pictures of us growing up. The house burned; almost lost our youngest brother in the house fire, and I must have been about twelve years old.
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| Linzee |
You were twelve?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
When your family home burned down?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
Wow.
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| Charles |
Lost our home, and my dad had a sister who had a home just below where our house was, and my dad sold some property to the tribe, and that money he used to move this house up. And the house is still sitting there. Grew up in a two-bedroom house. The five sisters were in one room, and Mom and Dad and the boys were in the other room. And I go into that house and can’t believe how small it is, and what we grew up with, what we had.
My kids—I tell them that when we grew up, we didn’t have running water or electricity. We had an outhouse. And then there was a creek, and we had to go down and pack our own water. And had to boil the water on the stove to do dishes. Mom cooked off a woodstove. I try to tell my kids how they should be thankful for what they have. [Some interruption may have happened here. Jill says to go ahead.] I was talking about my children. I don’t think they believed what kind of life that we had growing up.
Even though they thought they went without, they did receive a lot more than I ever did, and I made sure--. I thought of, when I grew up, how we were given one pair of shoes, a coat, and the struggle it was with five sisters to have a pair of socks. I think that’s why I have so many socks, so many shoes, so many coats. But I always made sure with my children, something they wanted would be given to them—special. I’m not downing my parents; they did the best that they could. My grandparents always helped my mom and them out. My dad was the youngest. I think his youngest sister, which was older than him, was about 20 years older. He was the baby.
I can’t remember how old Uncle Ray. He was also on the Council. I come from a family of Council. My grandfather,
Jimmy Charles, and my grandmother, Lizzie Sampson, was previously married to
Clement Bob was her first husband.
George Alexander was her second husband. And it was George Alexander and Jimmy Charles, and there was a few other elder men who started our Senate, our Council. He was one of the first ones that were on our Council.
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| Linzee |
And they started it, when would that have been?
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| Charles |
1936.
Along with Tandy Wilbur, and I can’t remember. I forgot I was going to bring the book and it showed all that information. My uncle
Ray Charles was also on our Council. Currently I have a sister,
Dianne Edwards, and Kevin Paul, who is George Alexander’s grandson. And a cousin
Jimmy Wilbur — him and I were elected in our first term. So our Council has been in our family on both sides. I remember—I think I was about 19 years old, and I was working in Employment Security. And I got a call, and they wanted me to come back here.
Back then, the tribal office probably consisted of maybe four employees. That was in town. And we had our gym built in 1961. It was through a bond—one of the first tribes that was ever to receive a bond. And in that gymnasium, they had what they called the Community Action Program. And then it was
Sister Irene Mandan, and Reggie Edwards, Bernice Billie, Beverly Peters, Claude Wilbur, Sr., Maryanne Edwards, and Joe Dunn. And I was hired as temporary bookkeeper, secretary. That’s how I got involved in accounting. I did their payroll for a while. Back then, since there was only two office, the payroll was done over here. I worked for about 23 months, and that’s when I got married and moved away.
And when I came back, I was offered a job with the tribe. In between, I did come back, and I worked maybe three, four months. Moved back down Nisqually, but I always worked in accounting, doing payroll, accounts receivable. But I also did the ledger.
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| Linzee |
Did you learn your training on the job, basically?
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| Charles |
On the job, yes I did. I never had any background. I started at the bottom of the totem poll and worked my way up. I seen that doing the payroll that it was best to have your education. I started very low. What I know now is just by experience on the job.
When I came back in 1979, I was offered a job in accounting. That’s when I was doing the general ledger. I think in 1980, we had about eight or nine employees that walked off the job. And three of them were from our department. There was only two of us left. And we had Moss-Adams come in, the auditors, and she moved me into payroll and grants and contracts. She moved Dianne as supervisor, and I forgot what else she did.
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| Linzee |
Why did all these people walk off the job?
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| Charles |
It had to do with former Council member who was a general manager saying, “Either you fire him or we’re going to quit.” And back then, in 1979, when I came back, it was the late Tandy James was Chairman. And he decided back then that he would appoint husband, couples, to be on our committees. And he appointed my second husband and I as on the personnel committee. And so we were involved with the personnel. I remember sitting in that Council meeting, and it was late Dewey Mitchell telling us we don’t have our employees tell us what to do. Fire them all—the whole bunch of them. And in that Council meeting, they were fired. That was my first duty, or involvement on the Council, being selected as a committee member, and that was on the personnel committee, and I served on that committee 30 years—1979 until just recently.
I worked with the tribe until 1985. My husband and I wanted a little girl but we ended up with two little boys, twins, in 1982. And in 1985, I decided I was going to leave my job and be home with my kids. But low and behold, in 1992, we went our separate ways. So in 1993, I applied for housing or utility position, and I worked there for two years. They combined our housing, utility, and then low and behold, my old job was available and I got it back, and I’ve been working there, in 1995, since then.
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| Linzee |
Charles is your given name, that you grew up with, right?
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| Charles |
Yes, my maiden name.
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| Linzee |
Your maiden name. And have you kept that throughout, or did you change back to your maiden name?
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| Charles |
I changed back to my maiden name after my divorce in 1995. My nickname was Lydie. And I decided when the divorce was final, I went back to Lydia, my birth name, and I went back to my maiden name, Charles. Then it must have been 1998 or 1999, I received my Indian name,
Abida. I share this name with my niece, who also is named after me, Lydia, but her middle name is Lynette, which is our cousin’s nickname, Lydia Lynette Ikebe.
I’m very proud to say I have a little granddaughter that’s named after me. It’s one of the twins that named their daughter after me, and I can’t tell you how happy I was when they told me. She’s two years old. She’s maybe the second to the youngest. I have ten granddaughters and five grandsons, and they’re all spoiled rotten. [both laugh]
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| Linzee |
By their grandmother, no doubt. Grandmothers have a way of doing that. [Laughter] So, when did you receive your Indian name?
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| Charles |
It was Barbara James who was on the Council. Her brother was receiving a name, and she is married to the family. This name came from our Aunt Nellie, from that family, the Bob family. And she felt, it was time I needed protection. That was during the turmoil that the Council was going through, and so she spoke with people in the community, and so that’s how I received my name.
And my niece, her dad was my brother-in-law, Lennie. He was the one that was killed with my husband. My one son
Leonard and Lynette were--I didn’t know at the time when I lost my husband I was expecting again. Eight months after Hal died, I had Leonard. And my sister, Donna, had Lynette. So when I had Leonard, I asked my mother-in-law,
Mildred Ikebe, if I could name Leonard after his uncle, and that’s how he got his name. And during the time when I lost my husband it was Morris Dan and Bertha Dan came down, the community. The funeral was held in Nisqually, and Bertha Dan, Morris, and Thelma Cayou, all the elders came down to be with me. And it was during, after the funeral, they told me that they were going to give this young man. It was Lucinda Joe that sent this name down.
My oldest boy,
Harold, received his Indian name after his dad’s funeral. And that’s how he got his name,
Ul-tabe. So it was Aunt Nelly that decided, she didn’t have no payout, she just says you’re going to get this, told my sister Donna that she was giving Lynette this Indian name, Abida. So, her and I share the name. She’s had the name longer than me. She was just a baby when she received her name and she’s 34. And my oldest boy, Ul-tabe, when he received his name, he was a year and a half.
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| Linzee |
But you were much older.
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| Charles |
Yes, I was always told and this was what Laura told me is that, she talked about young people getting their name: “You have to earn it. You have to work for it, to get your name.” But it was Barb felt that it was time that I should have a name. So she was the one, Barbara James was the one, that looked into it, and gave me that name. That’s how I could receive my name.
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| Linzee |
And she was an elder at the time?
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| Charles |
Just a good friend.
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| Linzee |
Now is there a ceremonial occasion when you are given your name?
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| Charles |
Yes. We had it at the spiritual center, and her brother received his name at the same time, and we had a dinner and had a little give-away. And that’s how I carry the name.
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| Linzee |
Does it have a special meaning?
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| Charles |
Not that I know of. I just know that I remember that after I got my name it was Maurine Martin teased me and told me that the name that I carry from the lady, was a very strong Shaker.
I grew up, my grandparents, Lizzie and Al, were Pentecostal. I was baptized as Catholic, but my grandparents attended the Pentecostal Church. When I married my second husband is when our children were baptized Catholic. I was learning along with them the Catholic ways. I didn’t know anything about their beliefs; I just knew Pentecostal.
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| Linzee |
And you were baptized Catholic yourself, did you say?
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| Charles |
Yes, yes. There was an elderly lady. Her name was Clara James, that always made sure that the children in the community were baptized, and it was Catholic.
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| Linzee |
So were most of the people at the time you were growing up, recognize themselves as Catholic?
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| Charles |
My older sister Dianne and I were baptized Catholic, but when my mom also also got involved with Pentecostal, my younger siblings were baptized Pentecostal.
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| Linzee |
Interesting.
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| Charles |
So that’s how, I was thinking about that
Shaker Church. And I don’t know very much about the Shaker Church, other than I’ve gone there maybe two, three times, and I never really grew up with it. A lot of the things, when we were young, I don’t know too much about the smokehouse organization because back then they didn’t allow children to go there. I think I was about thirteen years old when I was allowed to go to the powwow. It’s not like the way it is nowadays; you see children there all the time. I didn’t know anything about it; I still don’t know anything. I have one child, is my daughter, who went into the smokehouse five years ago.
I didn’t understand any of it. I still don’t know anything. It was something that they kind of kept to themselves, and I don’t understand it.
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| Linzee |
The elders kept to themselves.
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| Charles |
Yes. It’s like after death, we have a burning. We were never allowed to go to that. My mom and my grandparents—we weren’t allowed. If we did go, we had to sit out in the car. And I didn’t understand that. It wasn’t ‘til maybe in 1982 or might have been ’81. There was an accident that happened and I had to have a burning, and I didn’t know anything about it. I had two aunts, well three of them that were living, and they wouldn’t help me. I was trying to do it on my own, and it was Laura Wilbur that helped me, told me what to do, what kind of food to serve. It was my very first burning and I was scared.
When I did do it, I got in trouble, because I forgot about my grandfather, George Alexander, and after that I made sure he was there. I made a list out of the family. Now our family, when we have a burning, is about 30 plates that we get ready. I can do it now without feeling uncomfortable. I know what to do. I’m trying to teach my children. Sometimes we get in trouble because when we do do it, our children are not there. I try to pick up on how we were brought up. Our older children, like my sons, try to let them know how to do things. Because everything was a mystery; didn’t know anything. It was sad to say, you know. I think I must have been 31, 32, when I did my own burning. Now I can it do OK, I mean comfortably.
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| Linzee |
Now does this happen in the smokehouse?
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| Charles |
No, this is something that’s separate from the smokehouse. When my daughter first went in—See, my family on my dad’s side was never involved with the smokehouse. And since we were never allowed to go, I never got involved in it. The only time I remember ever going when I was older, maybe in high school, was New Year’s Eve powwow. I didn’t understand it; I still don’t understand. I remember when my daughter went in and it was Polly Cayou that was trying to explain to me what happens and I still—I had a hard time.
I was scared for my daughter, but she made it through. I told her, when I was trying to talk her out of it, that I’ll back you the first year but after that you’re on your own, because it was something I was never brought up into it. I’ve gone, maybe the first two years I’ve gone a couple of times, but the last three years, maybe once. I didn’t even go this last year. It was something I was never raised, never brought up, to go to that.
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| Linzee |
Now your daughter was her choice to go in to it.
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| Charles |
Yes, she gave herself up and decided to go into it. But I remember when my grandparents, Al and Lizzie, I remember when he became sick and he went into it. And I don’t know who it was told my mom that your kids will never go into it. It would be your children. And my sister, Dianne, has a son that follows the smokehouse, and I have a daughter. But we were told that we wouldn’t be in it.
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| Linzee |
It’s every other generation?
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| Charles |
Well no, I don’t know. They just—.
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| Linzee |
Huh.
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| Charles |
I don’t know any of that. Some of the things that, in the community, I have to ask, because I don’t know. I was never told. Always had a grandmother that took care of it, or my mom would help my grandmother. So we had to kind of learn on our own. There’s still stuff I don’t know, about our culture. Like if there’s a death in the community, I know that keep the kids in, don’t be out after three, don’t be in the cemetery after three—things like that I do know, and I follow it.
Always when there’s a death in the community, be there with the family that has lost a loved one, because they’re there with you. When I lost my sister, I still have a list of those that helped donate, gave a kerchief. I have a list of those that helped with my son and with my brother Jimmy—boating accident. We just keep track or keep record of that. And when we attend the funeral, then our family will get together and help that family out that’s grieving and let them know that we’re there with them, and helping them through it.
There’s some little things I do know, but not a whole lot.
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| Linzee |
But some of the things, the smokehouse, is that a very old tradition, I mean within the Swinomish Tribe itself?
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| Charles |
Yes, it is.
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| Linzee |
It is.
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| Charles |
And a lot of it is like they don’t allow recordings, and they don’t allow pictures. You have to be invited to go there. And they do, I think it’s on treaty day, is when they send out notice, invite people up there. I think that’s about the only time I went up there, is on Treaty Day. But these last two years I haven’t gone up there.
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| Linzee |
On Treaty Day. That’s really interesting.
How did you meet your first husband, given that he was from another tribe in another part of the state?
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| Charles |
Back then, they used to have baseball team and a basketball team, and they used to invite teams from all over Washington state, Oregon, Idaho, maybe Montana, and Nisqually would come up to our tournaments.
Nisqually Lobos—and I remember seeing him the first time. All the girls were just ooing and ahhing over him. [they laugh] There was other Nisqually men that were really nice looking, and him and I got together. My friend Vernita John and Janie (used to be Edwards), she’s Beasley now, we’d go down Nisqually, and it was right during the end of the Vietnam era.
He signed up for National Guards. He was failing. He was going to Everett Community College, and he was failing, so he dropped out. And that’s why he signed up for National Guards. Well, we happened to go down there, and him and I got together. And he was leaving that week, and he took my address and started writing to me. At the time (he was gone the whole summer), and he told a real good friend that when he comes home he’s going to settle down. He’s going to marry that Swinomish girl. And I didn’t know at the time he planned on getting married. And when he did come home on Labor Day weekend, he was courting me. And that’s how we knew each other—we’d see each other at tournaments; that’s how we met.
That’s how I met my first husband.
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| Linzee |
He knew you were the one, huh?
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| Charles |
Yeah, surprisingly. And I remember after his death, I would see girls in different reservations tell me: “So you’re the one that broke our hearts, marrying Hal Ikebe.” I didn’t even know who they were. He had the personality to have friends all over. A lot of them, he had girl friends. They were just friends. You know, well-known person. That’s how I ended up in Nisqually.
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| Linzee |
Did he sweep you off your feet?
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| Charles |
Yes he did.
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| Trebon |
Darn straight.
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| Linzee |
[Laughing] And so you went down to live down there, with he and his family?
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| Charles |
Yes, and he had a wonderful mother. She was a great mother. During that year when I lost my husband, which was about a couple of days after July 4. Three months earlier, my mom passed away. And so it was his mom who I looked up as my second mother. She was very nice. Took care of me. Her daughter, which is my first husband’s older sister Allie, was very good to me. That family was wonderful.
They were the ones that encouraged me to move on and find someone else and marry. And they were happy when I married my second husband. And when I had my younger children, she took them in as her own grandchildren. That’s how wonderful she was. When I go down there, I miss her, dearly. They recently had a funeral, and it was one of her younger sisters that passed away. She was one of the twins. And a lot of the people down there still remember me. I was just down there last week, and I had somebody come up and talk to me. I didn’t recognize them; I couldn’t remember them; they had to tell me who they were, and “Oh, OK.”
I told my son that it was always my hope or my dream that I would go down there and live again, and what held me back then was being on the Council. And then when I built my home. I told them that well maybe someday, in about seven years I plan on retiring, I’ll come live with you. And so he’s excited about me going down there and living with him.
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| Linzee |
Who’s this again?
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| Charles |
My oldest boy, Harold.
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| Linzee |
Oh, he lives down there.
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
So he’s made his life there.
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| Charles |
Yes. He grew up here until maybe his sophomore year, then he went and lived with his grandmother. And he was the one that did get his GED. Him and Leonard were both attending Haskell University.
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| Linzee |
Is this the one that’s in Kansas or something?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
I remember Pauline Hillaire telling me she went there, and it’s specifically a Native college, isn’t it?
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| Charles |
Yes. About maybe seven years ago I think, my niece was going to school down there, and she wanted to come home, but she was scared to death of flying. So my sister Donna asked me to drive her down. So I took the time and we drove down there in one week, we did all this. So I was down there; I did get to see, what that school looked like. It was nice. I was happy that I did that for her, though it was a long ride.
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| Linzee |
Yeah, it is a long ride.
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| Charles |
But anyway, my older boy is still continuing his education. I’m trying to encourage my younger children to get their GED. The older twin is short one class. The other twin, I bribed. I was paying him every week to go to school, get his GED, because he needs it, to get a job. Now is focusing on my grandchildren and letting them know the importance of going to school, making sure that they further their education. I always tell them, “I had a goal in my life. You need to set a goal in your life.” Encourage them.
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| Linzee |
How was it that your young husband, you said he was 21, how old were you when you married?
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| Charles |
At 22; I was like nine months older than him.
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| Linzee |
And how was it that he became, you said, Chair of the Council?
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| Charles |
The way they do their elections down there, they have their General Council, and they just nominate. I did get to go, and I witnessed seeing him be elected as the Chairman. Back then, Nisqually was just forming. I mean, they didn’t have no buildings like what we have. They were kind of behind Swinomish. And they didn’t have an office. So their office was held at his mom’s house, in their kitchen.
And then after he passed away, well the office was right near where we used to live, was the office. I did work for Nisqually maybe about two, three years, in the accounting department. But that’s their elections. They just nominate whoever’s there, and nominate them off the floor, and that’s how he was elected.
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| Linzee |
Did you find there were many differences between the way of life of the Nisqually as compared with what you grew up with here?
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It was different. A lot of the things that, they lost some of their culture. Sometimes you see some of our people go down there and help them, because they don’t have--. I notice like with, up here we have lot of speakers. Down there, it’s usually, I see it’s women that get up and speak. There is maybe a couple of gentlemen that gets up, but there’s no--. Like you see at funerals, you have like
Brian Cladoosby or
Tony Cladoosby, or
Joe McCoy, they’ll get up and speak to the family, to the community.
But down there I never see that. It’s different from what we have. They kind of lost it, but they’re coming back. They’re stronger. Like they do baskets. There’re people, elderly ladies that were doing, making the baskets down there. They’ve picked it up and that’s what they do. Some of the work that they do is beautiful, their baskets. They have like cultural classes, where they’ve learned to make those button blankets. I tried doing it. I still have the one that I was trying to learn how to do, but I never sewed the buttons on. I did do that much. I tried a basket, but it didn’t look like one. [both laugh]
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| Trebon |
You ought to try a few baskets.
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| Linzee |
One of THEIR tradition or one here?
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| Charles |
They’re what they do down there.
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| Linzee |
What towns are they in largely?
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| Charles |
They’re near Lacey, Lacey and Olympia. They’re just outside Olympia. I think it was in, might have been 1975 or 1985 [Lydia tries to figure out date]. It was when my daughter was a baby, when they got their building, their gymnasium built. And they had this old buckskin that they had people sign and it says, “Lydia Ikebe.” Because I did go by Lydie. [short comment not understood]
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| Linzee |
Is Ikebe your first husband’s name?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
That’s a very interesting name, and that’s a Nisqually name?
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| Charles |
It’s--Mildred was married, and I think it’s Japanese.
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| Linzee |
I was just going to say, it sounds like a Japanese name. So his mother was married to a Japanese man?
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| Charles |
It’s in that side of the family. I can’t remember, I think it was Allie’s--. I can’t remember; it’s been so long; but it was from the grandfather’s side. But on Mildred’s side, it’s like Nisqually, and then the Peter Kalama, it’s like Hawaiian; they have Hawaiian blood in them. My son has Hawaiian blood.
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| Linzee |
Now this is, Mildred is your husband’s mother?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
Yeah, I know the Lummi have a lot of Hawaiian mixed in there too. I guess there were Hawaiian pearl divers who lived out on the island years ago, and they intermarried with the Lummi. And you can see too, the Hawaiian heritage. So, when you were growing up, and you said your father was logging, would you say that that was how most people were making their living here on the reservation? Were most people involved in that? Were people involved in fishing at all, or what were the livelihoods?
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| Charles |
There was a few fishermen, and they would fish down the channel. And I must have been, eighth grade I think, I remember Dad and Mom. He got involved in fishing. I remember he used to log on the outside but it was Claude Wilbur,Sr. that had a logging company, so they did log within the community. And I remember there used to be a trail walk going down from our house down to the beach, and they had their old boat, and it was like a rowboat, and they would set the net out.
I remember the fish, the kings that they would bring home. It wasn’t like what we see today. These were huge. They started out in a little old rowboat, and then that’s what Dad--. Mom would row and Dad would set the net out. That’s what I remember. And the fishing, the only ones I remember was—what was his name, they called him Big Joe. And Archie, and Arnie Bob. Can’t remember all the old-time fishermen. And back then all this down here, you’d see old boathouses, and see their boats tied up to it, all along the channel, before they dredged it out.
Wasn’t ‘til later then Dad started. Remember they used to go down beach seining, and we’d spend about a month down there, living in a tent.
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| Trebon |
Would that be out at like
Lone Tree?
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| Charles |
Lone Tree. Looks a little different now. It’s like it’s washing away. But there used to be maybe, I remember Tommy Bob and Grandma and my grandfather used to have a little stand. He’d sell hamburgers and food down there. And Mom and them would have a tent, and David Joe. It was one other—Bob Joe would be there, all the Stone family, Cayou family would all be down there. Little tent, big tent. We had a big army tent; we all slept in that.
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| Linzee |
Now, were they fishing for salmon or were they collecting shellfish or all kinds of things?
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| Charles |
Fishing. It’d be like humpies. It’s like every two years that they go down there and they’re fishing humpies. And that’s what Grandma and them did. They’d have a boat and their net and go out there and fish. And then as the years went on with the
Boldt Decision, is when, you know, everybody got involved in fishing. And then fishing’s died, and now it’s crabbing and shrimping. I never dreamed that my children—I didn’t want them to go into fishing.
I had one son from my first marriage. He was our oldest boy, Tandy. He was just a young boy, maybe three, four years old, he just enjoyed fishing, hunting, everything. And he’s the one that is the fisherman. He’s a diver, Zachary’s a diver, and my son Harold from Nisqually’s a diver.
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| Linzee |
What are they diving for?
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| Charles |
Geoduck, and I’m not sure what else they go out for. Tandy—he fishes crab. Zachary—is getting his boat. He was a deck hand. Zebadiah’s a deck hand. One year, when I was with my second husband, we were still together, we did go down Lone Tree and beach seine. Couple of summers. Hard work. I never want to do that again.
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| Linzee |
Now, were you seining for your own eating or were you also selling it?
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| Charles |
Selling. My second husband had a boat and he would go out fishing for sockeye, and bring?? fishing, and that’s when I think, twins were a baby, and I learned how to can, and I always canned. I had such a big family that I canned every year up until about maybe three years ago. It’s just me, so I haven’t done any. I used to do everything.
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| Linzee |
Would you can fish as well as vegetables, the whole thing?
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| Charles |
Yes, fish, green beans, carrots, made jams, canned fruit. Everything I’d put away for the winter.
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| Linzee |
And how did you learn to can?
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| Charles |
One thing, while in school, used to have to take home ec, and I learned in school. And just went down, bought a canner, and read the book, and figured it out.
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| Linzee |
So it’s not something you grew up with your parents doing?
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| Charles |
My grandmother did can. They canned a lot. My mom canned off an old wood cookstove.
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| Trebon |
Did she pressure can, or did she just do open water bath?
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| Charles |
What did they call it—hot water bath?
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| Trebon |
Yeah, hot water bath.
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| Charles |
They did that, but I used a pressure canner. Mom did hers off the stove. And I did it because it saved us, it helped us in the wintertime. And I enjoyed doing it up until--. The only thing, my excuse was recently it was because I only had two burners that worked on my stove, so I quit doing it. [laughter] And it was just me anyway.
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| Linzee |
Right.
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| Trebon |
Would you get the vegetables from the farmers in the valley here?
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| Charles |
The Schuh Farms, I’d go out there and get it from them. And the raspberries, I used to go out to that one on Fir Island, but I ended up just getting all my stuff from Schuh Farms.
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| Linzee |
[To Theresa] You want to jump in and ask some more questions? Go ahead.
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| Trebon |
I was curious, what kind of education did your mom and dad have? Did they get sent down to, like one of the boarding schools?
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| Charles |
My dad, he went to
Chemawa.
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| Linzee |
He did.
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| Charles |
Um-hum. I don’t think my mom finished her education. Was young when they got together and got married.
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| Trebon |
Do you know if your mom attended the Swinomish day school that was here at the reservation?
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| Charles |
She could of.
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| Trebon |
She could of, OK. Because that went up to third grade, and then they went to La Conner or down to --.
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| Charles |
Yeah.
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| Trebon |
So, did your dad go to Tulalip at all, before Chemawa?
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| Charles |
No, he was down there, and I know that he did graduate.
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| Linzee |
Where was Chemawa? I’m not even clear on that?
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| Charles |
Is that down by Corvallis, or past?
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| Trebon |
It’s right north of Salem. When you go down on I-5, you’ll actually see an exit for Chemawa Road, and you look off to the left and you’ll see the water tower for the school.
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| Linzee |
So it must have been a big school, if they sent kids from all over, here, there, right? And that would have been when—in the twenties?
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| Trebon |
Started in the 1870s.
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| Charles |
My Uncle Ray, he went down there, and he was involved in boxing, because after our gym was built, then he’d have teaching the boys how to box. He was involved with that, trying to get them off the streets, back then.
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| Trebon |
Did your dad talk about what it was like to go there?
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| Charles |
All I remember him telling me was that he just wanted to come home. He missed his mom and his dad so much; wanted to be home; didn’t want to be down there.
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| Linzee |
Did your parents or your grandparents speak any of the Native language, that they grew up with?
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| Charles |
My grandmother and my grandfather. I remember my grandma talking to my grandfather and I knew we were in trouble by the tone of her voice. And my grandfather’d be sitting there,…look over at us. [laughs] I knew we were in trouble. My mom understood, but she never speaked it. She could understand what my grandmother was saying, but I don’t know why they never taught us.
I remember some of the words that Grandma would say, but I don’t know what it means. I just remember her, you know, all the elderly ladies talking, and we knew we were in trouble. Just by the tone of their voice. But my grandparents did. Spoke the language. And I don’t know why my mom and them never, you know.
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| Linzee |
Well, I think when they went to the boarding school, they were discouraged from speaking it there. I know that.
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| Charles |
I know that my grandmother, she was in Tulalip. She always talked about being down there. Lizzie, she was down there.
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| Linzee |
She lived there for a while?
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| Charles |
Uh-hum (meaning yes). Had to go to school down there.
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| Linzee |
Oh, your grandmother.
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| Charles |
Yeah.
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| Linzee |
Now, this is your mother’s mother?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Trebon |
And would she talk about what it was like? Or just, what she learned?
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| Charles |
She didn’t talk about it really. I mean, back then I was young, dumb, didn’t know no better. Never really paid attention to stuff like that, you know. Now I wished I did. I just remember her as a little, happy lady that cooked. I remember because my mom called her “Mom.” I called her “Mom.”
I remember her never driving. She always had to have a driver. I couldn’t wait until I grew up so I could drive my mom around, because that’s what my mom did, drove her. I don’t know what they did all day, but they’d be gone. [laughter] It sounded fun to me when I was going to school. [more laughter]
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| Linzee |
Go tooling around in the car. Go on little adventures together.
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| Trebon |
Did your grandmother, do you remember her working with her hands? Did she make baskets?
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| Charles |
My grandmother knitted. And I think all my mom did was do the yarn part. I just remember that.
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| Linzee |
The spinning.
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| Charles |
Yeah.
And anything that was left of my grandmother’s, Aunt Alfreda had, and they had a house fire, and lot of her stuff was lost then. I remember my grandmother, she baked the best pies. And Isabelle, she picked up on that. They used to make raisin pies. Oh, it was the best pies. I haven’t tasted any like that in a long time. I never picked up in baking pies. But that’s what my grandmother was--. She knitted, and I remember my grandfather Al would help her. He would, you know, get it all ready for her and do it for her.
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| Trebon |
Now this was Lizzie?
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| Charles |
Yeah.
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| Trebon |
Because she used to sell her socks, didn’t she?
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| Charles |
Uh-hum[meaning yes].
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| Trebon |
For money.
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| Charles |
Yeah.
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| Trebon |
She sold them as far away as like Idaho.
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| Linzee |
No kidding.
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| Trebon |
To sporting good stores.
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| Charles |
Yeah.
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| Linzee |
Wow. Your grandmother.
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| Charles |
Uh-hum.
My grandfather Al, he was on the Council as well. And I remember him. He worked, he used to be the maintenance person. And Grandma would just get up and follow him. Just sit there, and she’d be knitting there while he’d be cleaning the gym up. Or she’d be outside, and he’d be cleaning the yard up. She’d be sitting out there. Sometimes she would, I remember her cleaning, straightening up the kitchen over there. Never would get paid, just him, but she was with him all day. Just to be with him.
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| Trebon |
Did she belong to the Women’s Club?
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| Charles |
Uh-hum (meaning yes).
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| Trebon |
She did. She was probably one of the earlier members then, wasn’t she?
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| Charles |
Yeah, with Clara James.
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| Trebon |
They did a lot of good work around here.
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| Charles |
They did. I think it was, I don’t know if the twins were born yet or not, they used to have the Ladies’ Club back then. We used to have fundraisers here, and we’d sell the tables, ten bucks or something like that, and have like a flea mart, earning money for the Ladies’Club. Back then it was the Ladies’ Club that did the organization, like the funerals, or if a baby was born, that kind of--. They would be the ones that would step in and make sure the table was spread during a funeral.
Now we don’t have that anymore, because the women nowadays, everybody’s working. I mean it’s very hard. We don’t have that anymore, the Ladies’ Club.
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| Trebon |
They would do Christmas too, wouldn’t they, the Christmas celebrations.
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| Charles |
Yeah, they would be the ones that would do it. I remember all the volunteers and being in the program, in the old American Hall, that kind of thing. I was young.
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| Trebon |
It’s interesting when you back and look at some of the first Senate resolutions. A lot of them deal with things the Women’s Club were pushing, through the Senate, and asking for money and support. And I mean, they were like, they were really active. It’s really something.
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| Charles |
Uh-hum (agrees).
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| Linzee |
It’s interesting that it seems like there were just as many women involved in the Senate as there were men, is that true?
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| Charles |
Yes. At one point in time during my term, I think we had five women on the Council. One more and we would have outnumbered the men. [laughs]
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| Linzee |
How many on the Council; how many seats?
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| Charles |
Eleven. Our chairman, we used to tease our chairman, tell him that well, you think you’re the boss, but it’s us women that make the decision. Because the Executive Committee was Susan Wilbur and Barb James and I. And then it was Barb James, Dianne, or myself, and Dianne. And now it’s Barb, Sophie, and Dianne. He still has women that work under him.
I think the women did have a lot of involvement. I mean, they were somewhat the backbone. I can still remember, when I was talking to you about the old-time speakers, and how they can get up. And the knowledge and everything—the wisdom they had, when they’d get up and speak. And if we weren’t good, they’d let you know. They’d ball you out. I can remember my grandma sitting there and my grandfather’d be up speaking. And pretty soon she’d be nudging him and telling him to sit down and be quiet, yeah. They just—they, certain way, to have to address the people, like in a funeral. Like with us, all I remember is, cause my mom was in the kitchen, we were in the kitchen, like I remember doing dishes.
My sister and I, we’d clear off the table. I think that’s why I never really knew during funerals, because we were always in the kitchen area helping. That was our job. And we had to be quiet, and listen.
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| Linzee |
So what did the speakers get up and say? What is their role to say?
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| Charles |
They’re usually encouraging the family. They’re talking about the person that has left, and they’re trying to uplift the family, give them encouragement, talking about how that person was. That’s what they’re talking about.
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| Linzee |
So almost like a minister would do in a service, at a funeral service.
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Linzee |
But it’s lay people in the community that play that role. And are they identified in the community as someone who would be a speaker?
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| Charles |
They are.
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| Linzee |
They don’t just get up.
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| Charles |
I’d say the first time when you ever get up and speak, then that means from now on, you’re one of those speakers. I just remember one time when I think, it might have been like my first year on the Council, and I was asked to get up and speak. To find those words was very difficult. I knew right away I wasn’t a gifted person to speak, and I was soft-spoken anyway, so it was very hard.
Back in the old days, I remember those old time speakers and how they spoke to you. They had a way. And you don’t see it so much now. But to remember how they spoke to you and what they brought out. They were just beautiful to hear them speak, really. Times change; it’s not like it used to be—what I remember seeing. Even during my time as a young child, I remember my parents. How they talked. How it was different for them. So, it’s changed quite a bit.
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| Trebon |
When people would speak, would they speak in English usually? Do you remember hearing Native speakers?
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| Charles |
There was a few that would get up and speak in the language, and I’m not sure why they, if it was like to ball somebody out or--; I don’t know. There was a few that did get up.
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| Linzee |
So they would speak harshly to people sometimes, when they stood up, would they?
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| Charles |
Uh-hum [meaning yes].
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| Linzee |
What would they speak to you about that would be a negative thing?
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| Charles |
It would be like, if there was a child there that wasn’t behaving, then that person would get up and speak to the parent and ball them out, tell them that they shouldn’t have them there, that we’re here for the family, that kind of thing. Or if they weren’t sitting down like they were supposed to, then they would. And if the death was alcohol related, they would let you know the wrong in it, and how difficult it was for the family to lose a loved one like that. That’s how they would speak to you.
Those that were left behind kind of changed their ways so that it wouldn’t happen again. And we’ve had a number of deaths that were alcohol-related, drug-related. Within the last 20 years, the suicide rate has gone up. It’s very hard for me because I lost a boy in suicide. I am hurt just like the family’s hurt, because it opens that wound and the hurt that’s in it. I think about what I went through. I think about where that boy would be today if he lived. I think he would’ve went into counseling because when I was going through separation from my second husband, it was him, a nineteen-year-old boy, that spoke to me, and told me to pick up the pieces and move on with my life.
And when he came back, my sister Darlene and I went to the airport, picked him up, and he was all excited about school, and he told us he was thinking about going into counseling. And I thought, that’d be good, because he was the one that helped me, through what I went through. So, I knew then he was worried. He was worried about a class; he wasn’t sure if he was going to make it. And after his death in January, I received his grades and he did make it. So if he lived he would’ve been back finishing his first year.
Cause this would’ve been his second year of college because he started over in Wenatchee. Went there for about six months and then come home. Anyway. The suicide rate has gone up quite a bit.
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| Linzee |
Is it mostly young people?
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| Charles |
Yes. Something that when you hear about it, I always try to go to that person and encourage them, and tell them that there’s more to life than that. I don’t know why my son did it, but I let them know how I felt. And if they’re young, I try to talk to them. And it’s always alcohol or drugs that causes it, where they just can’t go on with their life because of the pressure that they’re under.
But anyway, that’s gone up quite a bit, I’ll tell you, in our community. And for me it was somewhat, in watching my kids grow up, the pressures, the things that were available to them, and what they go through now. My children took it very hard on what their brother did. Two of them had to go to counseling, and the one older boy was arguing with his brother the night before, and so he took it hard. You know, there’s so much pressure that these young adults are going through. Even the teenagers, what they’re going through, what they’re dealing with.
So it’s altogether different from, I mean, back then I was kind of laid back, and didn’t have nothing to worry about, you know, didn’t.
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| Linzee |
Yeah, I know.
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| Charles |
Then Georgia, with her aunt, she wants to come home now. I was helping my daughter raise her daughter, thirteen years old. She’s always lived with me up until about two weeks ago, we had a fall out and she moved out. Now, just desperately trying to help her with her education, trying to bring her up to be a good person, but she thought I was too strict.
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| Linzee |
This is your granddaughter?
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| Charles |
I think she’s rebellious, teenager. It’s just too much. So she, right now, is living with her mom, and she next fall will be going to live with her dad, and that’s down near Mukilteo or right down near Mountlake Terrace, right around that area somewhere is where he lives. And I did have her brother, who’s six years old. He went to visit his mom and hasn’t been home since. After my three grandsons that I have now, after they’re gone, I may have the whole house to myself. We’ll see. [Jill laughs]
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| Linzee |
That’ll be a nice feeling. [laughter]
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| Trebon |
Take a breath, take your breath. Question about the CAT program, the Community Action Program. That was a pretty pivotal thing, it seemed like, for the tribe, in terms of getting its first, like, businesses under way, like the fish plant and stuff like that. When you think back on what the Community Action Program did for Swinomish, do you have some ideas about that?
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| Charles |
The Community Action Program was somewhat like our Social Service. Within it had the recreation, the social service part, and the alcohol. And that’s where we were based over here. And the admin was over in town, and that was three. What they did back then was small, but still they serviced the community. I can remember, I think MDTA, that was through Skagit Valley College training our people to carpenters, welding, secretary, and I forgot what the other ones are. They had a little building here that they taught.
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| Trebon |
That was the Manpower Development Training Act?
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| Charles |
Something was part of Skagit Valley College. And was a smaller version of our Social Service, was our Community Action Program. Back then, my first boss was Sister Irene Mandan, very strict lady. I think she was the one that encouraged me to not miss work. More hours you put in, the more money you make. Told me the importance of not missing work. And so I think that’s luckily why I am, today, try not to skip work or --.
She’d come to my house if I--. Course, I was about nineteen back then. She was the one that sent me a letter, and she knew my dream, you know, wanted to be on the Senate. And she sent me a letter and told me, well, looks like the closest you’ll ever be involved with the Council is being a Chairman’s wife. She was the one that told me that. And when I came back home, she come up. She left work here, but I’d see her every now and then, and was happy to see her. But that’s what I think of the Community Action Program, is the way, you know like our Social Service, all the people that’s up here. Smaller version.
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| Trebon |
Because from the records it seems like they were instrumental, in the CAT program, starting the fish plant; the grants that came through that. That seemed like the first big business the tribe really undertook.
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| Charles |
It was, yeah. And during that time when they did finally get the grant and be able to build that building, was about the time when I left. Because I remember coming up and seeing that building and how amazed I was, and that they moved in over here, you know the office, from town, moved over here.
Lot of it was from that area, which was nice.
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| Trebon |
And then when you came back and when you were in the Senate, what was the first big undertaking, like fiscally? Because, you’ve said, I’ve read the article in the
Kee-yoks that you did with Frank, that the tribe went from managing dept to managing assets, while you were a Senator?
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| Charles |
When I was first elected on the Council, the tribe basically had nothing. I mean we had Shelter Bay money, and coming in Thousand Trails money, coming in. We basically lived off grants and contracts.
I remember this one opportunity to purchase Kiket Island. I forgot how much it was, but we didn’t have the money.
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| Trebon |
That’s an island right off the west.
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| Charles |
And now, what they’re asking for, what they could get, oh my gosh. If we had the money then, we would have bought it, but we didn’t have nothing. I was also was on the Council when I worked back in accounting, and struggled with trying to meet ends doing the payroll. Back then, it wasn’t very many staff, but still we didn’t have enough money to cover the payroll.
I remember not having enough to pay IRS. They were knocking on our door, or even the Bureau was about ready to come in and shut us down. That’s how bad it was for the tribe. I remember when we made the decision to do our bingo hall, and we had partners come in, and how scared we were—wondering if it was going to work or not. And I think it was Laura Wilbur, Irene Anderson, Nancy Wilbur, myself, and Marvin Wilbur, and maybe Jimmy Wilbur. The rest were men and they were out fishing, Sockeye fishing. It was during the summertime and, oh, Susan was on there. It was mostly women; we decided we were going to--We voted, put the motion on the table, and decided to go through with getting the bingo hall.
And I remember how scared Laura was, wondering if we should do it or not. But she put the motion on the floor, and that’s how we got our bingo hall. We were scared at first, because we didn’t make any money. Then we started getting a little bit of money, and then about ten years later is when our casino came in. The first year or two we lost money. The tribe side, we had to give up our 401-K. We didn’t get any salary increases. We had to go without because we had to provide for them. Until we got the slot machines in, and that’s when it started turning around for us.
And after that, we’re able to provide for the community, I mean like for social service program—medical, recreation, our seniors, our youth, dental, everything. I mean we made sure that we provided for those programs. And as time went on, I seen, thinking about where we’re at back then and where we are today, and always made sure that we didn’t just give the money away, we put it away; saved it. ‘Cause I didn’t want to put the tribe back to where it was back in the eighties, when we had nothing. I can remember going to training or going off to meetings, and they’d be giving pencils and pens away, and that’s what I’d bring home, ‘cause we couldn’t even afford that.
I still do it this day. I write my name on a pen, ‘cause people would take them. And I don’t have to do it no more, but I still do it. That’s just how it was for us; how poor our tribe was. Hide my pens from the staff; and I don’t have to do that no more, but I just automatically, just how I am. And then back then it was scary because I was afraid that we’d break the tribe and won’t have any money. Thought we’d end up bickering and fighting amongst each other, but we worked together and knew what was good for the tribe. We had to do it. I was thankful that we had a good governing body that understood it and knew where it was—where we were back then and how we were now.
And can’t tell you how, was good to work with them. And some of them are still serving on the Council. Though a lot of people, community members, think we’re not helping them, but in a way, we did help them, a lot. My personal feeling is I always made sure if anything that came into the tribe, those people out there would get it. I would make sure I would never get it myself, or my family. Everybody would get a piece of it, not just me but everybody—shared it with everybody. That was my personal. I think it’s like with Laura and Susan, they were the ones that knew, that we’re there for our people, to help them, and that’s what we’re elected for.
And I can say now that the governing body, some of them were on board back then, and they know where we came from and will never let them forget it, that it was tough back then but we made it. We succeeded, by what we did. I’m just glad to be part of it. I was glad I was on there. I was scared to talk to you because I didn’t know—“What is she going to ask me?” I felt that I didn’t have a whole lot of knowledge in a lot of it, or I felt that I really didn’t do anything, other than one vote maybe. I don’t know. So I hope that whatever I say is helpful to somebody.
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| Trebon |
You did a lot, Lydia, and I—
I haven’t been around near that long. I mean in the five years that I’ve been here, I’ve been in awe of what you’ve done. I really have been. Specially when you go through the records, and you see how much of a struggle everything was, up until quite recently, really quite recently.
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| Charles |
Like 2001, 2002, right around there.
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| Linzee |
There’s a lot to be proud of.
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| Charles |
Just made sure that--put it away and save it, and try to decide—. I think one of our biggest ventures, when we purchased the land down at the north end, the flats. And then we had an opportunity to buy the
Tallawhalt. And after we did that was when we built those homes. And those people don’t know how lucky they are, how fortunate. Those homes are beautiful.
We still have a number on our housing list, but we built 21 homes. And go into those homes and see how beautiful they are. I mean I thought my home was nice, but theirs is even better.
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| Linzee |
And they were built by the tribe?
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| Charles |
Yes.
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| Trebon |
Last year, wasn’t it?
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| Charles |
Yes. They just moved in. We completed them springtime; been in there a year. And we had areas up there that are - I think housing is going to build 10 two-bedroom homes up there. So we’ll have 10 more homes up there.
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| Trebon |
And there’s also a branch of the Northwest Indian College at the same place. That’s a community college, so that’s pretty neat.
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| Charles |
And then we decided at the north end we were putting in our gas station. We didn’t know, then, what the gas station would be doing. Kind of lucked out on that one. I can remember, I tell our Council members, “Learn from our mistakes,” because there’s a couple of times we got in trouble. What do they say, “Take the cart before the horse.” And we did that every time. I tell, “Let’s learn from it.” But we discussed. I know we made a few mistakes down the road, but we managed to pick up and move on. I’m just happy I was part of it. Now that you bring up things, I remember well, “Yeah, we did that.” Helped vote for that.
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| Trebon |
You know, something else that happened while you were a Senator, which I think is pretty profound, and that’s the tribe asserting its sovereignty in government-to-government relationships, with Skagit County or the State of Washington. How do you think that played out? Do you feel like that created a stronger sense of identity around here, or do you think people around that live aren’t really aware of that?
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| Charles |
I think it has helped, and I think it was through the efforts of
Rick Balam was the one that helped start that, and that’s how we really got involved in that, and through
Tom Schlicker. I see the difference, like in our community, how we work closely with the sheriff’s department. And how other tribes, just recently, was proved by the state, are struggling trying to work with their local sheriff. And how the local sheriff up there was willing to do that, and where it is today. I mean, we have our local officers working alongside. And it’s been a while, that we did do that, and it’s good.
And even before it was approved by State of Washington we were already doing it. So, I think it was through our law enforcement, their first efforts, what they did, that helped us. Never really thought of it that way. Part of deciding, what they call it, MOU.
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| Linzee |
Memorandum of Understanding.
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| Charles |
Yeah.
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| Linzee |
And what about the litigation that Swinomish has pursued, like to protect and enforce treaty rights. It seems like the Senate has strongly supported that, and it’s really quite remarkable.
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| Charles |
Some of the things, like with the legal issues, and I think that’s why I miss Marty. When I was on the Council, he would be the one that, if I didn’t understand it at the Senate level, I would go in and speak to him in confidence and he would give me the information, what he would see. I didn’t understand all the legal. I had a hard time with that, so he was the one that would update me and let me know.
There was other things that I would remember that would help him in that. Some of that, the legal stuff, was like over my head. And so I relied on him to help me. I would go talk to him in confident, and he would give me an answer, and whatever he told me, I would base my decision on. Because I needed help. I didn’t understand it. I still don’t understand a whole lot of it. I mean, it’s something that, not in my area. And if I don’t understand in some other areas I would go to Merrill, talk to Merrill, get what he thinks.
I’m kind of out of it now. I decided to take a break from the whole Council, because it hurt. I was very hurt, what happened. I decided to take a break and maybe next year I might get involved, but I don’t know. It depends on how I feel about it. ‘Cause I’m slowly getting out of it. But lot of that, I had a hard time sometimes. And I’d sit there and think. I’d look at everybody else: “Do I understand what they’re talking about?” you know. [Lydia then others laugh]
[During this last part of the interview there is some talking of one person over another and the transcription might not be totally accurate.]
Weed--I’ve got to run. Since I wasn’t in this morning, that’s what I’ve got to get back down and do.
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| Linzee |
Oh, yeah. Anything else you want to cover? We’ve covered a lot of ground.
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| Trebon |
I’m just really grateful for you speaking.
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| Charles |
I hope they don’t know it’s an Indian living there, because the yard is well kept and nice. I don’t know why I’m like that; it’s just something I do. I love doing, you know, enjoy doing yard work and keeping--. And I’m proud of my home. I’m very happy that I have a home. It took me eighteen and a half years to get it. And I thought I’d never see the day I’d that I would pay it off. But in seven years I’m retiring. In about four years I’ll have it paid off.
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| Linzee |
Wow.
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| Trebon |
That’s great.
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| Charles |
That’s my goal, is to be debt free by the time I retire, and I’m very close to it. I always have goals. That’s how I am.
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| Linzee |
That’s a great goal. [Lydia laughs]
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[End Interview.]
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Keywords from the Lydia Charles Interview
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Abida – Lydia’s Indian name
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Alexander, George – her grandmother Lizzie Sampson’s second husband
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American Hall – former community building on Swinomish reservation
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Anderson, Irene – Swinomish tribal Council member. Leader in community.
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Balam, Rick – helped establish the tribe’s sovereignty in government-to-government relationships
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Bob, Clement – her grandmother Lizzie Sampson’s first husband
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Bob, Gertrude – Lydia’s mother
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Boldt Decision – landmark judicial ruling (Judge Boldt) that recognized Washington’s tribes treaty fishing rights
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Charles, Jimmy “Al” – Lydia’s paternal grandfather
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Feather Dance – Lydia’s father
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Charles, Ray – Lydia’s uncle who also served on the Council
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Chemawa – U.S. government run Indian school established in the 1870s near Salem, Oregon. Many Native Northwest Indian children were sent to live and study at this boarding school in an effort “to integrate the Indian population into general society through education.”
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Cladoosby, Brian – member of Swinomish tribe who serves as a “speaker” at important tribal ceremonies, such as funerals
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Cladoosby, Tony – member of Swinomish tribe who serves as a “speaker” at important tribal ceremonies, such as funerals
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Council - Lydia’s lifelong dream was to serve on her tribal Council – something she has done for many years.
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Edwards, Dianne – Lydia’s older sister
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Ikebe, Harold “Hal” – Lydia’s first husband, who was killed at a young age in an automobile accident. He was enrolled in the Nisqually tribe.
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Ikebe, Mildred – Lydia’s mother-in-law (Harold’s mother), also from the Nisqually tribe.
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Joe, Sr., Robert (Indian name = Wa Walton) – respected member of the Swinomish tribal Council
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Kee-yoks – tribal publication
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Ladie’s Club – Important social organization in the Swinomish tribe – less active currently.
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Lone Tree – a major shellfish harvest and beach seining area on the west side of the Swinomish reservation. A very important tribal site for many reasons.
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Mandan, Sister Irene – Lydia’s first boss, whom she credits with instilling in her a work ethic
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McCoy, Joe – member of Swinomish tribe who serves as a “speaker” at important tribal ceremonies, such as funerals
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Mitchell, Dewey - member of the Swinomish tribal Council
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Nisqually - tribe of Lydia’s first husband, Harold Ikebe – located in Lacey/Olympia area
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Nisqually Lobos - name of basketball team Lydia’s first husband played for
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Sampson, Lizzie – Lydia’s maternal grandmother
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Schlicker, Tom – helped establish the tribe’s sovereignty in government-to-government relationships
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Shaker Church – a Christian hybrid tradition of sorts that developed in western Washington Native American communities and was more prominent 80-100 years ago.
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Swinomish – Lydia’s tribe – reservation is in LaConner, Washington
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Tallawhalt – a piece of land purchased by the Swinomish tribe in recent years that they developed into nice housing units just north of the village. Also the site of the Swinomish branch of the Northwest Indian College
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Ul-tabe – the Indian name of Lydia’s oldest son, Harold, Jr.
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Wilbur, Laura - best friend of Lydia’s grandmother and an important mentor for Lydia, Swinomish Council member. Leader in community.
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Wilbur, Susan – daughter of Laura Wilbur, served on tribal Council
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Wilbur, Tandy Sr.- husband of Laura Wilbur, served on tribal Council
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Harold Jr.; Leonard; Zebadiah; Zachary – Lydia’s children
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